Tibetan Translators Course, Chat Transcript
2005-01-17
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<AndreaLe> Hi Irma
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<robbi> hi everyone, hope you are well...
<AndreaLe> Hi Robbi
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<PeteUlint> hi all
<robbi> hi pete!
<AndreaLe> Hi Pete
<AndreaLe> We've updated the TibTrans site with audio, chat transcripts, and
homeworks and quizzes. It's at
http://www.dmes.org/terms/2004-2005/Winter/TibTrans/
<robbi> thanks andrea!
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<AnneS> Hi, Everybody.
<robbi> hi anne!
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<AnneS> Is there sound?
<AnneS> Oh, I think I hear rustling about.
<robbi> i'm getting audio...
<AnneS> Yea, I've got audio now.
<AndreaLe> Does everyone have the most recent version of Uma Chidun?
<PeteUlint> yep
<robbi> yes
<AndreaLe> It's at http://www.dmes.org/terms/2004-2005/Winter/TibTrans/
<AnneS> Dunno.
<AnneS> Thanks
<AndreaLe> He's doing a GOFER search in the ACIP database, through the
sungbum
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<BenjaminW> hi
<AnneS> Hi
<AndreaLe> BTW, Ted suggested that when I type in Geshe-la's translations, I
should break up the long paragraphs so you don't have to wait five minutes while
I type in a long passage.
<PeteUlint> hi
<AnneS> No audio.
<AndreaLe> I'll use ... to indicate there's more to come.
<AndreaLe> He's not really talking.
<robbi> hi!
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<PeteUlint> hi chukyi-la
<AndreaLe> Anne, is the audio coming back?
<AndreaLe> (There may be a delay)
<AnneS> No. Maybe iTunes is freaking out.
<mellon> I had to restart the audio, so you might need to hit play on iTunes.
<AndreaLe> Aha, the truth comes out, Ted.
<AndreaLe> You mostly missed silence.
<AnneS> Ok. Got it. Thanks.
<mellon> Sorry, I was busy restarting the sound and didn't have time to say
what I was doing. :'}
<AndreaLe> No worries, Ted-lad.
<AndreaLe> Now he's adding to the footnote to the bit about the 400 Verses:
it's mostly folio numbers, so you'll want to download the next copy of Uma
Chidun -- I don't want to mess it up.
<AndreaLe> GMR (such as the commentary by Je Tsongkapa on the secret practice
of Lo Diamond--Hevajra--at s5350, f.78a; and the explanation of Jikme Damchu
Gyatso on how to interpret the Buddha, at S0303...
<AndreaLe> , ff. 30a-30b),
<AndreaLe> You can get it from the next Uma Chidun download.
<AndreaLe> We're on the bit starting SGRON GSAL LAS, SANGS RGYAS KUN GYI RIM
GNYIS
<AndreaLe> We're translating from there through RIM BZHIN BSHAD, CES PA DANG
<AndreaLe> GMR: And this is further true because The Lamp of Illumination
says,
<AndreaLe> (start blockquote)
<mellon> Sound skipped again - sorry.
<mellon> Internet connection is flakey.
<AndreaLe> GMR: It was Chandrakirti--the one who received the @ of the ideas
of the two levels taught by every Buddha, and who was an extension of that Lord
of a Secret World, the glorious Warrior of Diamond--who went on to explain it,
step by step.
<AnneS> Yes, no sound.
<AndreaLe> THe @ is a place-holder for a word we're struggling over right
now.
<AnneS> what word?
<AndreaLe> "the one who received from Nagarjuna confirmation of his grasp of
the ideas of the two levels...
<AndreaLe> Did you miss the chat as well, or just the audio?
<mellon> Do you have sound now?
<PeteUlint> yep
<mellon> Sigh. We're having real trouble with the internet connection. :'(
<AndreaLe> We're translating a section that says that Chandrakirta received
teachings directly from Arya Nagarjuna, even though scholars believe they lived
hundreds of years apart.
<AnneS> Ni siybd here.
<AnneS> No sound here.
<AndreaLe> Our lamas maintain that Nagarjuna actually lived for hundreds of
years, which is a hard sell for some.
<AnneS> Sound again.
<mellon> Sound now?
<PeteUlint> yes
<AndreaLe> We're trying to figure out what the two levels are, I think.
<PeteUlint> sound now is, "and thats one of the reasons westerns scholars
have"
<AnneS> Andrea, I just saw your note to me above. I just missed the sound.
I'm getting the chat ok.
<AnneS> Just lost sound again.
<AndreaLe> OK.
<AndreaLe> Urk!
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<AndreaLe> Now translating from PAndI TA through ,ZHES GSUNGS PA'I PHYIR
<PeteUlint> Is there a reason for the lowercase letters in PAndI?
<AndreaLe> (It's a little chaotic here -- the projection screen (a bedsheet)
has just fallen down behind Geshe-la.
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<PeteUlint> demons...
<AndreaLe> The lower case is for retroflex Sanskrit letters.
<PeteUlint> sound back
<AndreaLe> Sheet fell back down.
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<AndreaLe> GMR: And it's finally true because the master scholar Kelden
Drakpa says as well,
<AndreaLe> (start blockquote)
<BenjaminW> y
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<AndreaLe> GMR: There were disciples of Nagarjuna who were each ...
<AndreaLe> (Now Geshe-la's computer is acting up. Demons are indeed afoot.)
<AnneS> I got bumped off and couldn't get back in.
<AnneS> Could you repost what trans I missed? Thanks.
<AndreaLe> GMR: These were disciples of Nagarjuna who were each ...
<AndreaLe> GMR: And it's finally true because the master scholar Kelden
Drakpa says as well,
<AndreaLe> (that was before the "These were" bit, which is a blockquote.
<AndreaLe> )
<AnneS> It's a note taking challenge tonight!
<PeteUlint> its part of the fun :-)
<AnneS> Oh. Iforgot.\!
<AndreaLe> Geshe-la is looking at some lineage stuff in the ACIP database,
since his word processor is acting up.
<AnneS> And I still don't have sound. BTW
<AndreaLe> :-(
<AndreaLe> Ted's resetting the modem, I think.
<AnneS> " "
<AndreaLe> He's reopening Word.
<AndreaLe> (GMR, not Ted)
<AnneS> I was wondering what Ted was doing re-opening Word.
<AndreaLe> Ted's doing some net
<AndreaLe> work stuff to try to get things working.
<AnneS> Thanks to Ted.
<PeteUlint> yea, thanks to you both for keeping us in the loop.
<AndreaLe> GMR: These were disciples of Nagarjuna who were each taught by him
directly; it's not the case that they received the transmission through others.
<AndreaLe> Geshe-la is stalling a bit, I think, probably for your benefit :-)
<AnneS> Does he know we're in cyber limbo?
<AndreaLe> Ted did something with the DSL modem, so maybe we'll have an
update from him soon.
<AndreaLe> GMR doesn't know conventionally, but those lamas are kind of
spooky sometimes.
<AnneS> Soaking up the digital vibes.
<AndreaLe> Now we're on the part starting with KHA CIG NA RE, DPAL LDAN ZLA
WA and ending GSUNGS PA'I PHYIR, ZER NA
<AndreaLe> Ted's still running around -- not sure what's happening.
<AndreaLe> GMR: Now someone may make the following claim:
<AndreaLe> (start block quote)
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<AnneS> Does that mean I'm supposed to have sound now?
<AndreaLe> GMR: It can't be true that the glorious Chandrakirti was a direct
disciple of the protector Nagarjuna. And this is true because Clear Words
includes that part which says, ...
<AndreaLe> I don't know what Ted's reappearance on the chat means.
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<AndreaLe> GMR: It can't be true that the glorious Chandrakirti was a direct
disciple of the protector Nagarjuna. And this is true because Clear Words
includes that part which says, "After some great length of time, the texts that
the Protector had composed--and his circle of disciples--declined, so that
nowadays the positions expressed in the texts are no longer clear."
<IrmaGomes> could some kind angel give me the audio address
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<PeteUlint> dorian.fugue.com:8000
<AndreaLe> http://www.dmes.org/terms/2004-2005/Winter/TibTrans/
<AndreaLe> (for the MP3s)
<PeteUlint> oops, sorry
<AndreaLe> I don't know which one she needed, actually. I just thought I'd
cover the bases.
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<AnneS> Do other people have audio?
<PeteUlint> nope, i don't
<IrmaGomes> thank you...
<AndreaLe> Ted is still doing strange things to try to fix things.
<robbi> no audio here either...
<AnneS> Only Irma has audio!
<AndreaLe> Ted just futzed with Geshe-la's computer in some mysterious way.
<AnneS> His mic's not on.
<AndreaLe> Really? I don't think so. Irma, can it be true?
<PeteUlint> he's the computer whisperer...
<IrmaGomes> no, I don't have audio
<AndreaLe> No, it's not a computer microphone.
<IrmaGomes> lol I wish
<AndreaLe> He has a big microphone that's going into a sound board, which is
plugged into Ted's computer.
<AnneS> Too many wires.
<AnneS> :-)
<robbi> ted the computer whisperer--very nice...
<AndreaLe> Ted seemed to be fiddling with Geshe-la's network settings to see
if his wireless is interfering with our DSL connection here.
<AndreaLe> That's my theory, anyway.
<AnneS> Why is he on wireless?
<EllyvdPas> It's going into my computer and I'll post it as an MP3 tonight
some time, whenever I get home.
<AnneS> Thanks Elly.
<PeteUlint> yea thanks
<robbi> indeed, thank you!
<AndreaLe> Just in case people don't know, Diamond Mountain is at the end of
a 15-mile road leading from a tiny dusty old town. It's a miracle that we have
any DSL here, but unfortunately it's not so reliable.
<AndreaLe> And then all this emptiness teaching seems to invite obstacles.
<AnneS> Oh. I had no idea where you are.
<AnneS> I'm so rural all my fancy WiFi stuff doesn't work at home.
<PeteUlint> I've been wondering that! Well if we all practice well enough,
there'll be a GigaPOP near there at some point.
<AndreaLe> Yes, we're crammed into an unfinished adobe house, hand-built by
DM volunteers.
<AnneS> Is it pretty there?
<AndreaLe> Very rocky and hilly. There are some great photos on a blog made
by one of the DM volunteers: http://diamondmountain.blogspot.com/
<AndreaLe> Back to the translation, from SKYON MED DE through MI 'GAL BA'I
PHYIR,
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<AndreaLe> GMR: But there's no such problem. All this quotation means is
that--during the latter part of the Protector's life--the general transmission
of his text, and the number of his students declined slightly. As such there is
no contradiction.
<AndreaLe> TSEI = life
<AndreaLe> SKU = holy
<IrmaGomes> elly-lha, will Gueshe lha's working copy be updated later on?
<AndreaLe> Refers to a teacher's holy life, and GMR doesn't want to use it
because it can sound cloying in English.
<AndreaLe> We decided that "Protector" is sufficiently honorific.
<AndreaLe> Yes, Irma, we're putting the updated translations up after each
class. Maybe not right away, but before the next class.
<AndreaLe> Translating from 'JUG PA RANG 'GREL through JI LTA BU ZHE NA,
<AndreaLe> GMR: Now one may ask the following question: ...
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<AndreaLe> GMR: Now one may ask the following question: "So we understand now
that we will be using Entering the Middle Way and its autocommentary in our
task of setting forth the suchness of profound dependent origination. ...
<AndreaLe> GMR: Now one may ask the following question: "So we understand now
that we will be using Entering the Middle Way and its autocommentary in our
task of setting forth the suchness of profound dependent origination. What
exactly though is the "middle way" that we'll be entering into; and how will we
be "entering into" it?
<AndreaLe> Oops, the quote levels are off:
<AndreaLe> GMR: Now one may ask the following question: "So we understand now
that we will be using Entering the Middle Way and its autocommentary in our
task of setting forth the suchness of profound dependent origination. What
exactly though is the 'middle way' that we'll be entering into; and how will we
be 'entering into' it?"
<AndreaLe> I don't know if there's any hope for audio tonight. Ted looks
fairly resigned. But we'll post the audio within 24 hours or so.
<PeteUlint> okay.
<AnneS> Thanks for posting it. And for trying so hard.
<AndreaLe> Ted's typing furiously -- I don't know if he's typing a chat
message or trying one last trick.
<AndreaLe> Oh, he's not on the chat at all.
<AnneS> Too bad he's missing the class.
<AndreaLe> Story of our life.
<AndreaLe> We figure maybe the karma of trying to help others participate
will help us experience the result of understanding this stuff.
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<AndreaLe> I'm hoping the karma of helping others learn Tibetan will help me
learn Sanskrit nicely (I'm more interested in Sanskrit, personally). And I hope
helping people hear the middle way stuff will help me see emptiness directly :-)
<AndreaLe> Translating up to BRJOD BYA DON GYI DMU MA GNYIS:
<mellon> Audio should be back.
<PeteUlint> got it! Wow, you ARE the computer whisperer!
<AndreaLe> GMR: The "middle way" can be divided, if only nominally, into two
different "middle ways": into the words used to express the middle way, and into
the middle way which is the subject of those words.
<AnneS> Lots of good karma to you both!
<AndreaLe> Whoa, Ted!
<AndreaLe> And you. You're the truly patient and persistent ones out there!
<AnneS> Wow!
<mellon> Hee hee, computer whisperer. I used to be a computer shouter...
<mellon> I think I know what caused this, and how to prevent it next week.
<robbi> is it DMU or DBU
<AndreaLe> Translating from DANG PO LA DBU MA'I through LTA BU PHYI MA YIN
PA'I PHYIR
<mellon> DMU is Diamond Mountain. DBY is 'oo
<AndreaLe> It's DBU, oops!
<AndreaLe> I'm a little typo-prone, as I'm sure you've noticed.
<robbi> thanks to both of you, you're our 'life line' out here!
<AndreaLe> GMR: And this is true because, for the former, there are both the
sutras and the classical commentaries of the middle way. ...
<AndreaLe> GMR: And this is true because, for the former, there are both the
sutras and the classical commentaries of the middle way. The first of these
consists of those sutras which...
<AndreaLe> GMR: And this is true because, for the former, there are both the
sutras and the classical commentaries of the middle way. The first of these
consists of those sutras which are literal, such as the more extensive,
medium-length, and briefer presentations of the perfection of wisdom.
<AndreaLe> I'm so glad you can hear this stuff :-)
<PeteUlint> this is great.
<AnneS> We are too!
<PeteUlint> andrea, you and teds numbers are gunna go up!
<AndreaLe> :-)
<AndreaLe> GMR: And this is true because, for the former, there are both the
sutras and the classical commentaries of the middle way. The first of these
consists of those sutras which are literal, such as the more extensive,
medium-length, and briefer presentations of the perfection of wisdom. The
second consists of works such as the Collection of Six Texts on Reasoning.
<AndreaLe> From BRJOD BYA through DBU MA DANG GSUM
<AndreaLe> GMR: Now the "middle way" in the form of what these books talk
about can also be divided (again, only nominally) into three types: foundation
middle way; path middle way; and result middle way.
<AndreaLe> Translating CHOS RNAMS RANG BZHIN GYIS MED PA DANG PO DANG,
<AndreaLe> GMR: The fact that no object has any nature of its own is the
"foundation" middle way.
<AndreaLe> Translating DE MNGON SUM DU RTOGS through LAM LTA BU GNYIS PA
DANG,
<AndreaLe> GMR: Something like the uninterrupted part of the path of seeing
for a listener who is in the direct perception of this "foundation" middle way
would be an example of "path" middle way.
<AnneS> Listener translating Sravaka?
<AndreaLe> He's explaining it right now.
<AndreaLe> Yes, Anne.
<AndreaLe> (That was me mispronouncing it :-)
<AnneS> Of cool. I heard you.
<AnneS> We mus t be a few minutes behind in audio.
<mellon> Venerable Phil's speaking now.
<AnneS> BTW I went to look at the pictures - which are wonderful. Beautiful
there.
<AnneS> I have a big pic of GMR up on my screen.
<AndreaLe> GMR (changed to): Moreover, something like the uninterrupted part
of the path of seeing for a listener who is in the direct perception of this
"foundation" middle way would be an example of "path" middle way.
<AndreaLe> Translating from NYAN THOS KYI thru 'BRAS DU DBU MA YIN PA'I
PHYIR,
<AndreaLe> GMR: And finally, something like the nirvana of a listener where
nothing is left is an example of "result" middle way.
<AndreaLe> Translating from DE RNAMS KYI NANG through BYED TSIG GI DBU MA LA
BYED CING,
<AndreaLe> GMR: Among all these different kinds of "middle way," the middle
way we are talking about when we speak of "entering the middle way" is the
middle way in the form of the words used to express it.
<AndreaLe> Translating from DE YANG DU MA'I thru SHES RAB LA BYED PA'I PHYIR,
<AndreaLe> GMR: And this is true because the "middle way in the form of
words" referred to here is the "classical commentary on the middle way," which
itself refers to The Root Text on Wisdom.
<AndreaLe> Translating from DE YIN TE RANG through ZHES GSUNGS PA'I PHYIR
DANG,
<AndreaLe> GMR: And this is true because the autocommentary says,
<AndreaLe> (start block quote)
<AndreaLe> I wanted to compose Entering the Middle Way in order to "enter
into" the classical commentary on the middle way; and so...
<AndreaLe> (The ellipsis is Geshe-la's)
<AndreaLe> Trannslating from RANG 'GREL DANG TSIG through SMOS PA NA DBU MA
LAS ZHES 'BYUNG BA'I PHYIR,
<AndreaLe> GMR: And this is true because, in both the autocommentary and in
Clear Words, Master Chandrakirti mentions each of the other texts from the
collection of six by their individual name, whenever he quotes them to prove a
point...
<AndreaLe> GMR: And this is true because, in both the autocommentary and in
Clear Words, Master Chandrakirti mentions each of the other texts from the
collection of six by their individual name, whenever he quotes them to prove a
point. But whenever he qquotes The Root Text on Wisdom, he simply says, "And
The Middle Way says..."
<AndreaLe> (Oops, Geshe-la put only one q in "quotes")
<AndreaLe> You guys still out there, with audio?
<PeteUlint> yep.
<AndreaLe> Yay!
<AnneS> Yes audio.
<robbi> yes..
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<AndreaLe> Goodnight, all.