Tibetan Translators Course, Chat Transcript

2004-10-04

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<AndreaLe>	Hello again

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<Anne>	Hello again

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<Anne>	Andrea, Do I need python23.dll? X-Chat couldn't find it, but
opened anyway.

<AndreaLe>	Hmm, I guess you don't need it then, since you seem to be
chatting OK.

<AndreaLe>	Did you get iTunes working?

<Anne>	Yes. I have it open. What should I do to know if it works?

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<AndreaLe>	Did you follow the instructions on
http://www.dmes.org/software.html ?

<AndreaLe>	The audio won't be very loud yet, since there are only a few
people in the room so far.

<Anne>	No. I forgot.  Sorry. I'll go there now.

<Anne>	I hear talking and laughing. Must be the group on site. They're
talking about videoing.

<Anne>	What page in the text are we on? Starting where?

<Anne>	I'm working off the Tibetan pdf that Elly sent. Is there any
reason to print out the ACIP before we start?

<PattiZ>	Hi Anne. I think we are at page 02b, in the sixth verse down,
second line starting TSIG GSAL

<Anne>	Patti, Thanks. I found it.

<PattiZ>	Cool.

<AndreaLe>	I don't think you need to print anything out -- you can
download the thing at http://www.dmes.org/tibtrans/Translation.zip and just
follow along there.

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<AndreaLe>	I don't think the VNC/video will be working any better
tonight than it did on Friday, so your best bet may be to follow along in the
chat window (I'll type in whatever Geshe-la is typing) and then cut and paste
that into the translation file you downloaded.

<Anne>	I have to download a few pages because, for a reason I haven't
been able to figure out, AdobeReader kicks my system into safe mode and it's
impossible to do much there.

<AndreaLe>	You should be able to open
http://www.dmes.org/tibtrans/Translation.zip (which unzips into an RTF) into
most word processors.

<Anne>	Ok. I'll skip the video and follow along in the chat window.
Where is he typing?

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<AndreaLe>	The video is just a shot of Geshe-la's computer desktop,
where he's typing into MS Word (it's projected on a wall here in the DMU
classroom).

<AndreaLe>	I type what Geshe-la is writing into the Chat room, so you
guys can follow along.

<AndreaLe>	I'll tell you what paragraph he's at.

<Anne>	OK. I opened translation.zip in Word. Good. Thanks.

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<AndreaLe>	Hi Bill, hi JRigzin!

<JRigzin>	Hi Andrea, Hi all!

<AndreaLe>	We missed you last time...

<JRigzin>	I was at a temple board meeting, but my heart was here :-)

<AndreaLe>	Well, I'll need to see a signed note ;-)

<JRigzin>	lol, actually my heart was in both places at once.  definite
need for bodhisattva multiple bodies!

<Anne>	Hi everybody. I'm new here.

<JRigzin>	My lama is in Santa Fe now, though.  Not far from you, I
think.  He could fed ex a note. :-)

<JRigzin>	Hi Anne

<Billmcmic>	Hello Andrea

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<Anne>	Hi JRigzin.

<JRigzin>	welcome to the fray!

<Anne>	Thanks. It looks like fun!

<AndreaLe>	Hey Bill.  Glad you got home OK.

<robbi>	hello Anne, everyone.  JRigzin, thanks for the invite!

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<Anne>	Andrea, Thanks so much for helping me get set up.

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<JRigzin>	no problem, did you send me  message about it?  I didn't get
it yet, but I'll be glad to pass one on to you.

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<PeteUlint>	hi all

<PattiZ>	Hi Pete

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<PattiZ>	Anthony, thanks for the great hypertext work, it really helps.

<AmandaNoo>	Hi everyone.  Sorry I'm so quiet.  I'm only really a
beginner at translation so I'm constantly playing catchup.  I'm really enjoying
this though and hope that soon I can make some small contribution.

<User_>	hi eveyone, are we at the verse starting 'tshig.gsal.las....'
by any chance?

<PattiZ>	yep, that's what i've got ,anyway.

<User_>	wow, that's as close as i've been to being up to speed all day.

<anthonyde>	i'm glad patti

<anthonyde>	has anyone got audio right now?

<PeteUlint>	I do... ambient room noise.

<User_>	i do

<Anne>	I have audio

<PattiZ>	oh, yes..lots of classroom sounds

<AmandaNoo>	Me too lots of chatting

<robbi>	yes, good audio

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<Anne>	Where is the hypertext people are talking about?

<anthonyde>	its on the bullitin board Anne, are you familar with how to
use that?

<Billmcmic>	Thanks fro the welcome home Andrea

<Anne>	I've seen it; that's all.

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<PeteUlint>	quizzes?

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<Anne>	Anthonyde, I've found it on the bb and am reading it now. Thanks

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<AndreaLe>	Well, we seem to be having our usual stack of obstacles...

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<AndreaLe>	But at least audio is working, and it will always be my
pleasure and privilege to share with you whatever Geshe-la is typing.

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<PattiZ>	thank you so very much, andrea-hla

<zorie1>	cello!

<User_>	ditto.

<robbi>	yes, thank you Andrea-hla!

<chukyi>	Hi everyone!

<robbi>	hi V. Chukyi-hla

<evanosher>	halo Chukyi-hla

<PeteUlint>	Hi Chukyi-la!

<PattiZ>	howdy chukyi-hla

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<michaeles>	hi

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<BenjaminW>	you guys rock!

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<TedLemon>	Got audio?

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<evanosher>	yup

<Billmcmic>	yes, Ted

<TedLemon>	thanks!

<michaeles>	I have audio, but tight VNC has been crashing

<JRigzin>	same here

<AmandaNoo>	Me too

<robbi>	ditto

<PattiZ>	audio is sweet

<TedLemon>	It's possible we'll have a better story for VNC on Monday of
next week at the next class, but it's the same today as it was Friday.

<JRigzin>	okay

<TedLemon>	You can play back the VNC later though if you want.   It's
just in realtime that it doesn't work.

<JRigzin>	thanks for working hard on it

<TedLemon>	Actually today I worked hard on the Diamond Mountain
Electronic Registrar, but I appreciate the thought.   :'}

<AndreaLe>	(he worked all night, in fact!)

<JRigzin>	you deserve lots of thanks anyway :-)

<Billmcmic>	the instant availability of audio at dmes is awesome,
thanks

<TedLemon>	Dawn over the mountains was lovely.

<PattiZ>	bakchak bonus points!

<TedLemon>	Maybe somebody could take some pictures of the off-site
Tibetan translators!

<AndreaLe>	Hey, we only started 15 minutes late!

<JRigzin>	we could send pics in

<AndreaLe>	Maybe a screen shot of the chat window :-)

<TedLemon>	It would have to show what you are doing - sitting at a
computer participating in class.

<Billmcmic>	I feel like a bubble boy, being there, but not being there

<AndreaLe>	:-)

<JRigzin>	an over the shoulder shot with the screen in the background!

<TedLemon>	Gotta have your face too.

<AndreaLe>	illuminated only by the screen!

<TedLemon>	And you should look excited and delighted, of course!   :')

<JRigzin>	then it will have to be taken during the class, cuz I'm
always excited and delighted here :-)

<TedLemon>	Yay!

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<Anne>	Anybody know his teacher's name?

<anthonyde>	Ngawang Thondup Narkyi

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<TedLemon>	If you are vncing, restart now.

<Anne>	That's familiar. Is he over here?

<AndreaLe>	GMR is working on paragraph starting TSIG GSAL LAS BRTEN and
ending RGYAS PA'I PHYIR RO

<JRigzin>	vnc good for now, anyway!!!

<AndreaLe>	(He sometimes moves the paragraph breaks around)

<AndreaLe>	Can you see the GOFER window?

<Mickey>	it would be great to get other teachings like this as well

<anthonyde>	not sure, he is still the official biographer, so i think
Dharmasala

<JRigzin>	no GOFER yet

<JRigzin>	oh, connection closed again

<Anne>	The official biographer of who?

<AndreaLe>	Well, I guess I'm not out of a job yet :-/

<anthonyde>	2 minutes off

<anthonyde>	HHDL

<JRigzin>	keep those fingers flying!

<AndreaLe>	He's looking up TSIG GSAL in the Tengyur

<AmandaNoo>	just got gopher

<anthonyde>	DBU MA RTZA BA'I 'GREL PA TSIG GSAL BA TD3860 Clear Words,
a Commentary to The Root Text on the Middle Way

<AndreaLe>	Always one step ahead, you!

<michaeles>	just got visual of gopher

<AndreaLe>	GMR: He is also doing so because, in _Clear Words_, it is
stated that we should refer to _Entering the Middle Way_ if we want to
understand the way in which things are...

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<AndreaLe>	(now he's looking for the right translation for BRTEN TAS
BTAGS PA)

<anthonyde>	the way of projecting through dependence?

<AndreaLe>	... the way in which things are labeled in dependence on
other things.  Furthermore, our text here gives an extensive refutation of the
Consciousness-Only system, whereas neither _The Root Text on Wisdom_ and _Clear
Words_ do so in an extensive manner.

<michaeles>	thats weird, I am getting the gopher search again.

<User_>	wow, go vnc--i'm less than 5 minutes off.

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<AndreaLe>	GMR just changed "do so" to "does so" above.

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<anthonyde>	does geshe la use _consciousness Only_ to avoid Darmanese
or common dharma cliches?

<AndreaLe>	He explains in the audio, I think (I'm a little lost myself)

<anthonyde>	thanks

<AndreaLe>	Next paragraph, starting with DE'I PHYIR GZHUNG and ending
with TSUL GCIG GO ,

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<AndreaLe>	GMR: Therefore, one way in which this text "enters into" the
"middle way" is that it allows one to come to an excellent understanding of the
meaning of _The Root Text on Wisdom_, by means of these two reasons why one
should rely upon the text.

<AndreaLe>	BTW, you'll hear Ted suggest a different translation of RTSA
SHES, and Geshe-la made quite an amusing face, and also a warding-away mudra
that looked kind of like the ASL letter B.

<anthonyde>	should't there be a foot note outlining these two reasons?

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<anthonyde>	or just add them, as per the principle When you have to
add, add

<AndreaLe>	Sentence starting RGYA CHE BA'I and ending LA 'JUG TSUL NI,

<AndreaLe>	GMR: Next we'll cover how our text "enters into the middle
way" from the point of view of the far-reaching teachings.

<AndreaLe>	Paragraph starting 'PHAGS PA'I LUGS 'DIR and ending MI 'BYED
CING,

<AndreaLe>	GMR: Here in the system of the Arya, the distinction between
whether one belongs to one og another of the two ways is not drawn on the basis
of whether or not one possesses the wisdom which perceives the extremely subtle
form of thusness.

<AndreaLe>	one or another, not one og another!

<AndreaLe>	Sorry about the typoes!

<anthonyde>	which two ways, can you add mahayana and hinayana or
Greater and Lesse ways? and it's not clear which Arya JTK is talking about?

<AndreaLe>	in the audio... Arya Nagarjuna.

<AndreaLe>	Paragraph starting RTZA SHE LAS ZAB and ending KHYAD CHOS MA
BSTAN KYANG,

<AndreaLe>	(sentence, really)

<AndreaLe>	_The Root Text on Wisdom_ does present the profound side of
the teachings, but does not go further to elucidate the specific features of the
greater way: the far-reaching side of the teachings.

<anthonyde>	thanks andrea, i meant it may not be clear to the reader,
if  _Nagarjuna_it's not added

<AndreaLe>	Paragraph starting GZHING 'DI NI and ending MDZAD PA YIN TE,

<AndreaLe>	Between the greater and lesser ways, this particular text
was composed with reference to those of the greater way.

<AndreaLe>	Paragraph starting RIGS PA'I RNAM GRANGS, ending with BSTAN
PA'I PHYIR RO,,

<AndreaLe>	GMR: And this is because the method of presentation where
you express the selflessness of objects at great length, utilizing an almost
infinite number of logistical arguments, is something which is done only with
disciples of the greater way in mind.  This is also the way it's presented in
_The Root Text on Wisdom_.

<AndreaLe>	Paragraph starting 'DI YANG RANG 'GREL and ending PAR 'DOD
PA'I PHYIR RO,,

<AndreaLe>	GMR: This point in also made in the autocommentary:

<AndreaLe>	(reformats into a block quotation)

<AndreaLe>	GMR warns us that this next part will be extra dense, since
it's coming from the Sanskrit...

<michaeles>	does tight vnc have to start at the beginning each time it
crashes?

<AndreaLe>	GMR: It makes perfect sense to present the teachings of the
greater way if you really want to make clear the fact that objects have no
self-nature.  This is because people of the greater way have a great desire that
you present this fact in great detail.

<AndreaLe>	(Removed the last "great", before "detail")

<AndreaLe>	Paragraph starting NYAN THOS KYI THEG and ending with 'OG TU
'CHAD DO,,

<TedLemon>	Right now you're just playing back the whole deck - there's
no way to join in the middle.   The reason is that if we set it up so you can
join in the middle, if you are slow, Geshe Michael's machine hangs.

<TedLemon>	you meaning your connection.

<AndreaLe>	Added "very clearly" to the preface to the blockquote, "This
point is also made very clearly in the autocommentary"

<TedLemon>	The hack I need to do is to set it up so that when you
connect, it plays back the whole current state immediately and generates a
single frame containing that, and then from there on out you are just following
in realtime.

<TedLemon>	If anybody feels like hacking on this, it would be most
cool.

<AndreaLe>	Blockquote continues: In the teachings of the way of the
listeners, it's enough to present the lack of a self-nature to things in nothing
more than a cursory way.

<AndreaLe>	GMR: We'll talk more about this statement later on.

<AndreaLe>	(That's Je Tsongkapa talking)

<AndreaLe>	Paragraph starting DE LTAR NA GZHUNG and enhing NA SHIN TU
LEGS PAS,

<AndreaLe>	GMR: It's an excellentt approach then where the path which
is taught in that text is supplemented by other teachings on the far-reaching
path of the greater way: by other insructions of the Arya.

<AndreaLe>	changed to "instructions from the Arya"

<TedLemon>	To give you an idea about the VNC, we're up to 70 megabytes
right now.

<AndreaLe>	Paragraph starting DE SKONG PA and ending GNAS LA BRTEN NAS,

<AndreaLe>	GMR: In order to supplement the text, he will be using the
concepts of the three qualities of the levels of ordinary beings; and then the
ten levels of a realized being who is still learning; and then the resulting
level;

<AndreaLe>	Oh, he's changing the paragraph breaks and is moving the
next section up, until SGOM PA RNAMS GSUNGS SO,,

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<AndreaLe>	GMR: the resulting level; and how in the passace between the
two steps of the fifth and sixth levels one utilizes the very essence of
meditation -- stillness -- in order to meditate with the extraordinary vision:
an examination where wisdom analyzes thusness in the form of the two ways in
which there is no self-existence.

<AndreaLe>	Geshe-la calls that sentence "typical Tsongkapa" :-)

<anthonyde>	_Exception_seeing_ GMR has used inthe past

<AndreaLe>	exceptional seeing?

<anthonyde>	Exceptional

<AndreaLe>	Anthony, we're going back through the paragraph together
(since it's so dense), so I'll try to suggest "exceptional seeing".

<AndreaLe>	Onto the paragraph starting DE'I PHYIR RTSA and ending YID
LA BYED PA

<Anne>	Why not just say Vipassana?

<anthonyde>	because its dharmanese

<Anne>	So he's getting rid of all dharmaese?

<AndreaLe>	GMR: Therefore, when you're thinking about the meaning of
_The Root Text on Wisdom_, you have to think about it remembering these points
that are spoken about in _Entering the Middle Way_ -- you have to think about it
utilizing the various steps of a way which combines both the profound side of
things and the far-reaching side of things.

<anthonyde>	yes - because it alientates 99% of the intended audience -
see principle

<Anne>	"highest seeing"?

<Anne>	as in "best seeing"

<AndreaLe>	changed to "utilizing the various steps of an approach which
combines..."

<AndreaLe>	Paragraph starting MA BYUNG NA and enhing STOR BA YIN NO,,

<anthonyde>	i think there is a better seeing than hlag tong though

<JRigzin>	can I just weigh in with how unncessary the word "utilizing"
is, when using is so much cleaner?

<Anne>	Anthonyde - what do you mean "see principle'?

<AndreaLe>	GMR: Any person who fails to do so has completely lost the
two very reasons for which _Entering the Middle Way_ was written in the first
place.

<anthonyde>	3. Translate EVERYTHING into the intended language. 
Leaving Sanskrit and Tibetan words in the translation only alienates the
audience.  The only people who can understand the foreign words- are the
minority Buddhists who have struggled to learn them over the years and know what
they mean ‰ the wider audience (those outside the 5000-6000 American
Buddhists) will just skip the foreign words, and if there are too many, will
eventually put it in the

<anthonyde>	‰too hard‰ basket.

<anthonyde>	.. he forsakes the two purposes (jH)

<Anne>	thanks

<AndreaLe>	Paragraph starting DE'I PHYIR GZHUNG 'DI and ending TSUL
GNYIS PA'O,,

<AndreaLe>	GMR: Therefore the second way in which this text "enters the
middle way" is that it can be used for entering the path of _The Root Text on
Wisdom_ by means of the far-reaching side of the teachings.

<AndreaLe>	Paragraph starting GNYIS PA NI and ending MTHUN PAR MDZAD
PA'O

<AndreaLe>	He corrected a typo in the original... changed DON DI PA'I
to DON DAM PA'I

<anthonyde>	the homage

<AndreaLe>	translator's obeisance

<AndreaLe>	GMR: Here is the second point from above: the translator's
obeisance.  The wording of this obeisance is easy to understand.

<AndreaLe>	(Now we're looking it up)

<AndreaLe>	Looking in Tengyur/Uma/Jukpa

<Anne>	Does he have the whole ACIP database at his finger tips?

<AndreaLe>	Pretty much, yeah.

<Anne>	Do we, too, in theory?

<AndreaLe>	We're trying to get that organized, yes.

<Anne>	Way cool.

<AndreaLe>	OK, now we're hanging out in the original Uma la Jukpa

<AndreaLe>	'JAM DPAL GZHON NUR GYUR PA LA PHYAG TSAL LO,,

<anthonyde>	Kensur Lekden (from J. Hopkins), reported that during the
rule of the Tibetan King Tri Relpa Chen (815-38) ‰ that he decided that all
translators must follow this ‰dewy‰ number catalogue system to indicate
which basket of teachings the text was from.

<AndreaLe>	Geshe-la is talking about that right now.

<anthonyde>	oh, okay thanks

<AndreaLe>	The VNC probably just vanished.

<AndreaLe>	GMR's computer froze :-(

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<AndreaLe>	GMR rebooting.

<janetyelo>	While we are waiting... is there any way that we can get a
copy of the Root Text? (i'm new here -- just got all my computer gear up &
running...)

<Billmcmic>	dmes.org in the tibtrans section

<janetyelo>	thx

<JRigzin>	http://www.dmes.org/tibtrans/

<AndreaLe>	There's a link near the top of the page.

<TedLemon>	You can restart your vnc if you're feeling adventurous.

<AndreaLe>	GYUR PA he translates as "who did become" which in turn
becomes "is"

<TedLemon>	Right, it's the past perfect tense.

<AndreaLe>	Back to GNYIS PA NI...

<anthonyde>	Ted, im getting the vnc now, with only 3 mins delay

<User_>	me too, way to go ted

<AndreaLe>	GMR: The wording of this obeisance is easy to understand. 
The prostration is made to Gentle Voice because this text sets forth the
ultimate form of higher knowledge, and thus principally treats the training on
wisdom.  The prostration is then made as it is to remain in accordance with the
royal edict of ancient times.

<AndreaLe>	not ancient times, "olden times"

<AndreaLe>	my mistake

<Anne>	I think I got the VNC up. But there's no action.

<Anne>	oh, he's typing. Cool.

<AndreaLe>	Now we're looking at UMA CHIDUN...

<TedLemon>	You may be looking into the past, unfortunately.

<Anne>	"The prostration is made to Gentle Voice because this text sets
forth the ultimate..."

<AndreaLe>	You can tell how long the delay is by looking at the clock
on the bottom right of GMR's screen.

<Anne>	Whoops. "Connection closed".

<AndreaLe>	Right now it says 7:24

<AndreaLe>	Oops

<Anne>	I opened it again, but I don't see a time.

<AndreaLe>	bottom right?

<Anne>	Oh. 7:17. Behind. humm.

<AndreaLe>	we're at 7:26 now

<Anne>	Yeah.

<AndreaLe>	He's translating in Uma Chidun right now -- maybe we can get
this text online for you guys.

<AndreaLe>	It looks like Elly has a copy on her screen...

<JRigzin>	I got it from you at  the first class, I think.

<AndreaLe>	Incidentally, Uma Chidun is a commentary on Je Tsongkapa's
text (the main one we're translating)

<TedLemon>	So does Chu!

<Anne>	I was wondering.

<anthonyde>	what about a lower case _an illumination of the true
thought of the commentary _upper case_ The Illumination of the True Thought.  To
show the verb in the pun?

<Anne>	Bush in sanskrit is kusulu.

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<AndreaLe>	He's typed: Herein contained is _A Lamp for Those of Clear
Minds_, which is an illumination of the true thought of _The Illumination of the
True Thought_, and which presents an overview of that great classical
commentary, _Entering the Middle Way_.

<BenjaminW>	good job y'all

<EllyvdPas>	I'll put up all the translated texts as far as it's gone so
far after each class, for those who missed it.

<zorie1>	ciao for now!

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<AndreaLe>	Thanks Elly!

<chukyi>	encourage all your friends to tune in :-)!  For the
commentary!!!

<anthonyde>	Thanks Elly!

<TedLemon>	Thanks everyone for coming!

<BenjaminW>	aloha

<JRigzin>	So no class on Friday?

<Anne>	Thanks everybody. This is great.

<AndreaLe>	No, see you Monday.

<AndreaLe>	Glad you joined us, Anne :-)

<PeteUlint>	Thanks all!  thurs rje che!

<Billmcmic>	thank you Ted and Andrea for making the class possible

<JRigzin>	It will seem so long!  Thanks again.

<janetyelo>	thanks for your help -- see you monday! Tashi Delek!

<robbi>	thanks so much Andrea , Ted,  V. Elly, V. Chukyi, and everyone
else --hla's!

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<User_>	did anyone get where in the root text we left off--i.e., where
we start next time?

<Anne>	Thanks for all your help!

<AndreaLe>	You can listen to some of the other DMU recordings!  See
www.dmes.org

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<AndreaLe>	Also www.diamondmtn.org/transcripts/dmu-audio.html

<Billmcmic>	user it gets updated on the web site

<Anne>	It takes over an hour to download each one. Is there another
way?

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<JRigzin>	great idea

<anthonyde>	Thanks you again Ted and Andrea for making this so seemless

<User_>	and again thanks so much, ted and andrea.

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<JRigzin>	bye all, and thanks again.

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<AndreaLe>	Bye, thanks for coming!

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